PDA

View Full Version : Is this really a 6?



SmokyOkie
04-05-2009, 07:20 PM
Here's a pic of the turn in box for chix from the Stillwater comp.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p190/dickeydoobbq/Stillwater%202009%20team%20pic%20and%20chicken%20t urn%20in/HPIM2297.jpg

Scores for appearance were 979667.

I see that I could've spread the sauce a little more evenly. I also see that I might( heavy on the might) have been able to arrange the lst two thighs a little more straight, but really folks, does it look like a 6?

I guess I'm lost if it does, cuz, I think it looks great.

They train judges that if it makes you feel like you don't want to share it with the rest of the judges at your table that it is prolly a 9. It does that to me.

what is your score and why?

Partyshack BBQ
04-05-2009, 07:25 PM
Here's a pic of the turn in box for chix from the Stillwater comp.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p190/dickeydoobbq/Stillwater%202009%20team%20pic%20and%20chicken%20t urn%20in/HPIM2296.jpg

Scores for appearance were 979667.

I see that I could've spread the sauce a little more evenly. I also see that I might( heavy on the might) have been able to arrange the lst two thighs a little more straight, but really folks, does it look like a 6?

I guess I'm lost if it does, cuz, I think it looks great.

They train judges that if it makes you feel like you don't want to share it with the rest of the judges at your table that it is prolly a 9. It does that to me.

what is your score and why?
Did you put the pic in a box, if you did that would have been a dq'. You give team photos if you win not try to get good scores for your pic

BA_LoKo
04-05-2009, 07:28 PM
Well, that's sure a fine crew you've pictured. I don't know that I would score any one of you 6. :shrug: I ain't like that. :misbehaving:

:D

SmokyOkie
04-05-2009, 07:29 PM
I guess Lance was right when he said I needed sleep.

let me go back and correct that.:blushing:

Partyshack BBQ
04-05-2009, 07:36 PM
I guess Lance was right when he said I needed sleep.

let me go back and correct that.:blushing:

man I did comps so many times and the more I do the longer it takes me to recover lol. Especially since we party pretty hard and then try to keep the smokers lit. lol

Partyshack BBQ
04-05-2009, 07:39 PM
Its missing a piece of parsley in the lower left and the garnish could have been a little thicker there. Other then that it looks great Tim

The elk's score so random .

SmokyOkie
04-05-2009, 07:40 PM
Thanx for the help on the poll Lance.:msn-wink:

Partyshack BBQ
04-05-2009, 07:41 PM
Just judging what I was given :msn-wink::msn-wink::roflmaoha0::roflmaoha0::roflmaoha0:

Partyshack BBQ
04-05-2009, 07:42 PM
Care to show your other boxes? I would love to see your pork box.

BA_LoKo
04-05-2009, 07:44 PM
Great presentation. My only concern would be too much sauce. Looks just a touch too heavy. I'd have never given it a 6 though. Probaby an 8, maybe a 9 on appearance.



On edit: the greenery means nothing to me. It does do a nice job of keeping the pieces aligned though.

SmokyOkie
04-05-2009, 07:52 PM
Its missing a piece of parsley in the lower left and the garnish could have been a little thicker there. Other then that it looks great Tim

The elk's score so random .

You're right about the parsley. The right side middle could've used a piece or two as well. do you think that any of the judges really look that close at that type of thing?

I really don't think the parsley knocks it down to a 2 though.


Care to show your other boxes? I would love to see your pork box.

I don't have the others, but I have PMed the4 other members to see if they got one. You know how it is, you get busy the clock ticks, you forget about pix and think about the turn in time.

I think we got a pic of the pork. If we got one of the ribs, I won't post it.:roflmaoha0:

Short One
04-05-2009, 07:58 PM
:whathesaid: Also don't know about such things, but would the thighs being more equal in size have helped. Just my :twocents:.




















Here I'll do this so you don't have to Tim :smack: :roflmaoha0::roflmaoha0:

BYBBQ
04-05-2009, 08:13 PM
Ok, Tim, you're not going to like me for this but I give it a 5.

Thighs not equal size or shape
Thighs not trimmed the best
Color of skin not even...some are dark some are lighter
Sauce not even and too thick
Parsley missing in spots, thin in other spots, hanging over the side in another spots
Sauce on top of greenery next to edge of box
Arrangement of thighs in box could have been better ( Some of this due to unequal size and shape )

I told you that you wouldn't like my opinion. Sorry.

BYBBQ
04-05-2009, 08:31 PM
Tim, let me say that I wasn't trying to be overly critical or that it wasn't a good turn-in. But, I see in your posts how important details are to you in your cooks. I don't know if you rushed or what, but it just didn't seem up to your normal attention to detail. Little things make a difference and I guess I'm not used to seeing you miss those little things.

BA_LoKo
04-05-2009, 08:35 PM
Keep in mind that the greenery is not required for a KCBS comp. "Turns ins" are accepted with only the meat. Garnish should have NO bearing on the appearance score, per KCBS rules.

Butt Lover's
04-05-2009, 08:57 PM
It's not a nine, but for sure not a 6 in my book.

BYBBQ
04-05-2009, 08:57 PM
Keep in mind that the greenery is not required for a KCBS comp. "Turns ins" are accepted with only the meat. Garnish should have NO bearing on the appearance score, per KCBS rules.

I understand this, but with that being said.....the overall neatness of the box will still be judged and even though garnish is not required and shouldn't make a difference, in most judges eyes a poorly garnished box will not look as neat and clean and take away from the overall appearance of the box. That's just human nature. That I guess is why some of the top guys sit and trim their garnish with little scissors to make that box as neat looking as possible.:msn-wink:

Edit..... What I'm saying is, if you do use garnish, you want it to be neat and enhance the look of the box. You know what they say about first impressions.

tsunami_tommy
04-05-2009, 09:02 PM
Did you put the pic in a box, if you did that would have been a dq'. You give team photos if you win not try to get good scores for your pic

I used to work for a little privately owned company named Cargill. I love to see the stearling silver brand!

flying illini
04-05-2009, 09:37 PM
I with Kev on the sauce and agree 8 fer sure.


Great presentation. My only concern would be too much sauce. Looks just a touch too heavy. I'd have never given it a 6 though. Probaby an 8, maybe a 9 on appearance.



On edit: the greenery means nothing to me. It does do a nice job of keeping the pieces aligned though.

SmokyOkie
04-05-2009, 09:44 PM
Tim, let me say that I wasn't trying to be overly critical or that it wasn't a good turn-in. But, I see in your posts how important details are to you in your cooks. I don't know if you rushed or what, but it just didn't seem up to your normal attention to detail. Little things make a difference and I guess I'm not used to seeing you miss those little things.

First off Jim, I saw that you voted a 5 in the poll, and I appreciate that.

Next let me say that I had hoped that you would weigh in. No one could possibly put together a turn in box with the perfection that you could. No, I'm serious.

And lastly let me say that if i didn't want folks to pick it apart, I wouldn;t have posted the poll, so everybody, pick away.

Here again, this is only a turn in box, not my wife or my sister.

I was aware of the fact that the thighs were not uniform in size. I trusted my meat supplier and I guess i shouldn't have. The thighs were frozen and cryovaced when I picked them up. I was very disappointed when I pulled them out to rub the. I considered going to the grocery store and buying some more to replace them, but I didn't.

There was also a definite lack of skin on them as well. I had it suggested that I might've trimmed some meat away to compensate for that, and next time I will. Out of 12 thighs, that was the best I could muster.

Personally, I still think that it was a better than average turn in box, but definitely not perfect.

There really is no criteria set forth by KCBS as to how to judge appearance other than trying to do it by whether or not it makes you want to pick it up and eat it. to quote the KCBS rep that did the judging clas I recently attended, this is BBQ, not an art contest. I can see that there are a few things I may want to watch.

Thank you for your input.

jerry516planes
04-05-2009, 09:45 PM
Keep in mind that the greenery is not required for a KCBS comp. "Turns ins" are accepted with only the meat. Garnish should have NO bearing on the appearance score, per KCBS rules.

:whathesaid:

Were all of the judges at this contest cerified? You have a point that is a big spread in the judging scores. Generally certified judges are much more consistant. Then again no system is perfect and the KCBS system is about as fair as it can be considering how subjective the process is.

Just my :twocents:.

Fatback Joe
04-05-2009, 09:47 PM
It's not a nine, but for sure not a 6 in my book.


Pretty much sums up my feelings on it as well.

SmokyOkie
04-05-2009, 10:18 PM
:whathesaid:

Were all of the judges at this contest cerified? You have a point that is a big spread in the judging scores. Generally certified judges are much more consistant. Then again no system is perfect and the KCBS system is about as fair as it can be considering how subjective the process is.

Just my :twocents:.

None were CBJs.

chef schwantz
04-05-2009, 11:57 PM
While I'm not an expert by any means, I will offer up my opinion. I refuse to offer up a numerical judgement, as I didn't see it firsthand. Here are my amaturer opinions:

The fact that the thighs are not uniform in size was the first thing I noticed. Okie, you had mentoined that you thought about that when you first saw them :smack:nuff said.
Even if the rules say you won't be judged by your garnish, don't assume that because of that, it won't have an influence on judging, as it is part of the plate.

The sauce isn't uniform in application, and seems almost as though it was poured on rather than brushed evenly. Would you want sombody to paint your house that way?

Just my two cents, and I am not by any means as expert when it comes to yardbird. Hope it helps.

erain
04-06-2009, 01:02 AM
Here's a pic of the turn in box for chix from the Stillwater comp.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p190/dickeydoobbq/Stillwater%202009%20team%20pic%20and%20chicken%20t urn%20in/HPIM2297.jpg



following this thread up til now, if i may share my thoughts. again not a trained judge or ever been in a comp and dont know if thats even up my alley in the future. total green horn here ok, but looking at the pic the first thing i did see was the difference in size of the thighs as well, also the center right thigh and upper right thigh dont seem as well done as the rest. i am sure they are but to me visually they look a lil different than the rest.

as far as the parsley whether its needed or not, or even if its judged, probably if its there, its hard to not include it in the package deal. whether intentional or not. it sorta frames the whole thing and maybe a lil lacking here or there along with the size issue may have given a deduction in score. that still looks above average to me. but at a comp what is average would be my question??? it surely looks above average from this non participant. i wont vote as i am not qualified to do so.

still looks good to me tim!!!

Joneser
04-06-2009, 05:23 AM
I thought it looked very presentable....Was Mr. Magoo one of the judges?

Bbq Bubba
04-06-2009, 08:55 AM
Keep in mind that the greenery is not required for a KCBS comp. "Turns ins" are accepted with only the meat. Garnish should have NO bearing on the appearance score, per KCBS rules.

Kev, thing is, if your gonna use it, it better look good.

No score here Tim as i am not a judge, but from a competitors perspective...

You HAVE to learn to trim your thighs. They have to be proportionly the same and you can cook 200 and not get the same 6 you need.

Sauce looks like it was dumped on, try more of a "glaze" and use the cooker to melt it in.

The lettuce is a mess with parsley making it worse. Do one or the other, not both, and it has to be flat to support the meat.
Theres sauce gooped all over the greens, that may have been the reason for your scoring.
I'm guessing the low scores were from more qualified judges.
Hope i was helpful and not too critical.

Fork it, how bout an example.....

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/246/mtmorriscomp011.jpg (http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mtmorriscomp011.jpg)
By imn88fan (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/imn88fan)

glued2it
04-06-2009, 09:19 AM
The box was prebuilt originally with just lettuce. I know your not supposed to judge on the greenery but I'm sure it's always a factor. (like Chef S mentioned above.)

Seems to be with the parsley it's too hard to get it low enough to fit the chicken in it without the top smashing it. hence the lettuce.

I think I oversauced the pork too.:blushing:

SmokyOkie
04-06-2009, 10:35 AM
following this thread up til now, if i may share my thoughts. again not a trained judge or ever been in a comp and dont know if thats even up my alley in the future. total green horn here ok, but looking at the pic the first thing i did see was the difference in size of the thighs as well, also the center right thigh and upper right thigh dont seem as well done as the rest. i am sure they are but to me visually they look a lil different than the rest.

as far as the parsley whether its needed or not, or even if its judged, probably if its there, its hard to not include it in the package deal. whether intentional or not. it sorta frames the whole thing and maybe a lil lacking here or there along with the size issue may have given a deduction in score. that still looks above average to me. but at a comp what is average would be my question??? it surely looks above average from this non participant. i wont vote as i am not qualified to do so.

still looks good to me tim!!!

Technically, they are supposed to only judge the meat for appearance, but I gues I am reminded now of my comparison to the fact that a pretty girl looks better in a pretty dress.

:blushing: I am somewhat embarrassed to admit that it never occurred to me to trim some meat of the thighs to get that uniformity. If I had done that, then It would've solved the uniformity issue.

It was my plan to only use lettuce, but when I put the meat in, the edges looked bare. Anybody got any tips on how to place the lettuce to keep it even around the sides?


I thought it looked very presentable....Was Mr. Magoo one of the judges?

I think perhaps it was the box preparer that was Mr Magoo!


Kev, thing is, if your gonna use it, it better look good.

No score here Tim as i am not a judge, but from a competitors perspective...

You HAVE to learn to trim your thighs. They have to be proportionly the same and you can cook 200 and not get the same 6 you need.

Sauce looks like it was dumped on, try more of a "glaze" and use the cooker to melt it in.

I tried setting the suace, and this sauce doesn't respond well to time in the smoker. This same chicken took 1st pace against stiff competition in Ponca City last fall so I sdon't know as I'm ready to change it up yet.

I don't know it if was the angle that I was looking from or what, but I did brush it on and it did look even from where I stood. Maybe it was the grease on my glasses?

The lettuce is a mess with parsley making it worse. Do one or the other, not both, and it has to be flat to support the meat.
Theres sauce gooped all over the greens, that may have been the reason for your scoring.
I'm guessing the low scores were from more qualified judges.
Hope i was helpful and not too critical.


I only see sauce on one piece of lettuce, am I still missing it?

There were no qualified judges there, just the Local Elks members, and none of the CBJs.

And once again, I put it up there so that everybody could tear it apart!
Fork it, how bout an example.....


By imn88fan (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/imn88fan)

Chargrilled
04-06-2009, 11:04 AM
I am also not going to score a number as I dont Forkin know!!!

But did learn alot about turn in boxes here!! Holy chit man, I had no idea they were that critical!!!! All this before they took a bite!!!!!!

If you close the lid on the box and get a lil sauce on the lid, is that a deduction??:shrug:

Looks good to me Tim, you said you cooked 12 of em, so how the heck did they taste???? Doesnt that count for more than their green dresses???:shrug:

Butt Lover's
04-06-2009, 11:39 AM
Anybody got any tips on how to place the lettuce to keep it even around the sides?


I cut the leaves in half for the ones that are going around the edges, that helps take some of the curl out of them.

Bbq Bubba
04-06-2009, 11:59 AM
I tried setting the suace, and this sauce doesn't respond well to time in the smoker. This same chicken took 1st pace against stiff competition in Ponca City last fall so I sdon't know as I'm ready to change it up yet.


Don't change it, work with it. Theres lots of ways to "thin" down your sauce without changing the flavor. I believe we discussed this last year.

Either your blind or i'm seeing things, theres sauce all over the lettuce, parsley and box, unless you got brown tipped lettuce? :shrug:

SmokyOkie
04-06-2009, 02:21 PM
I am also not going to score a number as I dont Forkin know!!!

But did learn alot about turn in boxes here!! Holy chit man, I had no idea they were that critical!!!! All this before they took a bite!!!!!!

If you close the lid on the box and get a lil sauce on the lid, is that a deduction??:shrug:

Looks good to me Tim, you said you cooked 12 of em, so how the heck did they taste???? Doesnt that count for more than their green dresses???:shrug:


That's the hard part Trav. By the rules, it doesn't count off, but that doesn't mean that somebody isn't gonna count off for it.



Don't change it, work with it. Theres lots of ways to "thin" down your sauce without changing the flavor. I believe we discussed this last year.

Either your blind or i'm seeing things, theres sauce all over the lettuce, parsley and box, unless you got brown tipped lettuce? :shrug:

More likely the former than the latter,:blushing:

peculiarmike
04-06-2009, 03:42 PM
I do not like taking a thigh out of a turn in box and the bottom of it is completely coated with greenery that has stuck to the sauce. Then I have to pick it over to remove it before taking a bite so I can taste the meat.
As far as appearance goes I look at the meat, don't give a fat rat's butt about the green stuff except to ascertain it is not illegal. That's what judges are supposed to do.
I give your thighs a 7 out of the kindness of my heart.
If this was the Okie's back yard I'd be on them like a chicken on a junebug. :D

SmokyOkie
04-06-2009, 04:55 PM
I do not like taking a thigh out of a turn in box and the bottom of it is completely coated with greenery that has stuck to the sauce. Then I have to pick it over to remove it before taking a bite so I can taste the meat.
As far as appearance goes I look at the meat, don't give a fat rat's butt about the green stuff except to ascertain it is not illegal. That's what judges are supposed to do.
I give your thighs a 7 out of the kindness of my heart.
If this was the Okie's back yard I'd be on them like a chicken on a junebug. :D

There is no sauce on the bottom, and parsley not sticking to the bottom is part of the reason that I chose to use lrttuce, that coupled with the fact tht it's hard to fit them in the box with the parsley carpet.

What you say about the garnish is indeed the way that it is supposed to be. As it is explained in the judges classes, the only thing that should be judged at all in regard to garnish is it's legality, that abd uf ut's obviously just thrown in willy nilly.

erain
04-06-2009, 09:37 PM
I am also not going to score a number as I dont Forkin know!!!

But did learn alot about turn in boxes here!! Holy chit man, I had no idea they were that critical!!!! All this before they took a bite!!!!!!

If you close the lid on the box and get a lil sauce on the lid, is that a deduction??:shrug:

Looks good to me Tim, you said you cooked 12 of em, so how the heck did they taste???? Doesnt that count for more than their green dresses???:shrug:

:whathesaid:
found this thread highly interesting, hear all the times about the guys in the comps but never really had a clue what went on as far as turn in boxes etc... and then getting the other guys pitching in there comments and bubba his pics. very educational and interesting.
neat stuff tim!

SmokyOkie
04-06-2009, 09:48 PM
:whathesaid:
found this thread highly interesting, hear all the times about the guys in the comps but never really had a clue what went on as far as turn in boxes etc... and then getting the other guys pitching in there comments and bubba his pics. very educational and interesting.
neat stuff tim!

Perhaps, but a purely selfish motive.:ack2::roflmaoha0::msn-wink:

Joneser
04-07-2009, 05:21 AM
I read somewhere on the many bbq sites I've visited, that some judges will not brush off the parsley and mark you down for the meat tasting like parsley....ever heard of anyone doing that?

Butt Lover's
04-07-2009, 09:19 AM
I read somewhere on the many bbq sites I've visited, that some judges will not brush off the parsley and mark you down for the meat tasting like parsley....ever heard of anyone doing that?

I have heard a judge say that she hates cilantro and it's hard for her to taste the food because of how bad she hates cilantro. So I could see that happening though it should not.

Geek with Fire
04-07-2009, 12:28 PM
I've never competed and I've never taken judging classes, so I'm not qualified to give you advice from that front. But, as a photographer, the first thing I notice is the difference in size of the pieces and the evenness of the sauce. That leads to an uneven appearance. After watching several youtube videos on competitions at Memphis, I'm thinking many of they guys cook way more than is needed, and pick the best items for the turnin box. Not sure how many you cooked, but I'm thinking the middle left dude sticks out more and looks uneven.

With said, I wouldn't have turned it away. Looks good Tim.

EDIT: Holy crap. I guess I failed to read everyone elses comments (multitasking aint my forte). Everything I said has already been mentioned, so just ignore me.

SmokyOkie
04-07-2009, 09:17 PM
I would like to thank everybody for picking it apart. No, really, seriously.

Judges are trained not to judge the box down for the box, but rather the meat. That being established, is goes without saying that not all judges will remember that. Once again, they scored the appearance here are the scores in order of judges # 979667.

It appears that judges 1 and three were looking at the meat ( as most of you have expressed, the meat does look hungrifying). Judges #2 and6 were prolly thinking that the meat looked great and they didn't want to score it down too much for not being too pretty.

Judges 4 and 5 were prolly guilty of judging the box assy instead of the meat.

What do you all think, do you think that pretty well sums it up?

And Joneser, I haven't heard that one, but I have heard that there is no such thing as a good spare rib, that it's an automatic 4 if they don;t remove the membrane from the ribs, and that they just really don;t like that smoky taste on their meat..Also, if I'm not mistaken, there was someone at the last judging class that expressed that she " didn't like pork".

Am I right on that one guys who attended?

cabinetmaker
04-08-2009, 06:54 AM
I would like to thank everybody for picking it apart. No, really, seriously.

Judges are trained not to judge the box down for the box, but rather the meat. That being established, is goes without saying that not all judges will remember that. Once again, they scored the appearance here are the scores in order of judges # 979667.

It appears that judges 1 and three were looking at the meat ( as most of you have expressed, the meat does look hungrifying). Judges #2 and6 were prolly thinking that the meat looked great and they didn't want to score it down too much for not being too pretty.

Judges 4 and 5 were prolly guilty of judging the box assy instead of the meat.

What do you all think, do you think that pretty well sums it up?

And Joneser, I haven't heard that one, but I have heard that there is no such thing as a good spare rib, that it's an automatic 4 if they don;t remove the membrane from the ribs, and that they just really don;t like that smoky taste on their meat..Also, if I'm not mistaken, there was someone at the last judging class that expressed that she " didn't like pork".

Am I right on that one guys who attended?

Yep! She wanted everyone to know, cause she repeated its twice!!!!:misbehaving::smack:

californiasmokin
04-08-2009, 10:10 AM
Tim,I think this thread will pay big didvidends for you.It confirmed what you already knew.No matter what people are trained to do you will always have people that do what they think is the right way to do it cause they know best.:roflmaoha0:
By paying attention to some of the small details that many have pointed out you should be able to raise those scores.
While many qualified judges may not score down for garnish I do believe in first impressions(dress for success etc)(I don't trust a skinny cook) and the need to do your homework on presentation just as you would for the type of sauce that is popular in that region.
I looked up the kcbs rules .They don't tell you much about what to look for in the meats.
It did state that all the judges are shown the box before it is placed on the corresponding # for the judge.Are they picking which piece they get or is it placed there for them?
I clearly don't know what wins at comps because I find that when I look at your box and Bubba's yours is more appetizing to me.(Not a knock Bubba)Probably because as a backyard cook I know that chicken just doesn't come out that uniform and I have never been instructed what to look for in judging.But I will say that it is human nature for that first impression to have a impact on scoring whether they believe it or not.

SmokyOkie
04-08-2009, 10:47 AM
It is passed around the table with each judge selecting his/her own piece.

I gues the moe important thing is trying to decide whether or not to use this flavor profile and cooking method in the future.

It's hard to quit it when your first comp earned you a 1st place call. If I'm not mistaken, the second comp placeed 15th or so in a pretty large and tough field. Then this last one got us a 40 something place.

I thin we'll give it one more try before abandoning it for something else.

Anybody got anything to offer on the dilemma? All input is welcome. I mean, this is the official Q Joint BBQ team, it's only right that the Joint should have some input.

Joneser
04-08-2009, 11:07 AM
I think you should stick with the recipe, maybe alter the presentation a bit. Maybe trim them up a little more consistent and cook the sauce in a bit and you'll be right where you want to be. I'll admit, at first blush I gave the higest score, but after reading others observtions and critiques, I'd be inclined to agree with the average score. I'm not a Flip-Flopper, I just have a new outlook.... :D

SmokyOkie
04-08-2009, 11:14 AM
Only thing is that we got a lower score for tenderness and flavor than we did for appearance.

The chix were delicious, I guess it just wasn't what those particular judges wanted to see.

Another good question would be just how long do you have to prepare the box before the food gets cold? remember too that it takes about 20 minutes for the food to get to the judges mouths.

californiasmokin
04-08-2009, 02:01 PM
When they are tasting what do they use to clean their pallet before moving on to the next contestant?Water?

Jeff Hughes
04-08-2009, 03:18 PM
When they are tasting what do they use to clean their pallet before moving on to the next contestant?Water?

Water and crackers...

SmokyOkie
04-08-2009, 03:43 PM
They give out crackers and water.

Jeff Hughes
04-08-2009, 09:14 PM
Kev, thing is, if your gonna use it, it better look good.

No score here Tim as i am not a judge, but from a competitors perspective...

You HAVE to learn to trim your thighs. They have to be proportionly the same and you can cook 200 and not get the same 6 you need.

Sauce looks like it was dumped on, try more of a "glaze" and use the cooker to melt it in.

The lettuce is a mess with parsley making it worse. Do one or the other, not both, and it has to be flat to support the meat.
Theres sauce gooped all over the greens, that may have been the reason for your scoring.
I'm guessing the low scores were from more qualified judges.
Hope i was helpful and not too critical.

Fork it, how bout an example.....

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/246/mtmorriscomp011.jpg (http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mtmorriscomp011.jpg)
By imn88fan (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/imn88fan)

Now that is a box of chicken...

Do you all see why this is a 9 and Tim's is a 6?

SmokyOkie
04-08-2009, 09:29 PM
I would, except the chicken doesn't look very appetizing to me.

Actually, our box pulled an overall 7.6 for appearance, only 2 of the 6judges scored it a 6.

I wonder who's bix that was and what it scored.

Hey Bubba!

I think you took 3rd in chix @ Stillwater Jeff. First of all congratulations on that, but at the risk of asking too much, what type of method did you use, what kind of flavor profile? did you trim the bone and/or meat on yours?

Thighs?

I think it's kinda cool that three Q Joint members got calls at that comp.:thumbs up:

By the way, any idea why Smokin Okie Russ didn't show up for it?

Jeff Hughes
04-08-2009, 09:52 PM
Russ had a roll out(he works for HP) last week...

I use a combination of methods. I learned them all from others sharing...

I bone and trim thighs. Butcher and others don't bone, but all successful chicken cooks trim to obtain uniform pieces.

Some brine, some marinade(italian dressing is popular).

I use a popular commercial rub, under and over the skin.

I cook for thirty minutes at 275, then I pan in sauce at 275 for 30 minutes, then I cook at 325 to 350 for 30 minutes to set the sauce. I adjust the temp in the last 30 minutes to hit 180 internal. If the temp needs to be at 350 or 375 that's what I do.

Pay close attention, this is make or break time.

My chicken comes out of the pit and into the box, and off to the judges.

Full parsley score boxes best appearance wise...

SmokyOkie
04-08-2009, 10:07 PM
I took a 1st place with this same chicken last fall in Ponca City. I decided to use it because I happened into it and the wife and I thought it was the best we ever tasted. The first time I did it it was a 165 or better.

Then in Jenks, I didn't execute it well but still placed decent.

It doesn't involve a brine or marinade, and when I tried setting the sauce, the sauce didn't respond well, flavor wise, texture wise or appearance wise.

At any rate, I have one success, one middle of the road, and one bomb ( it was in Stillwater) do you think I should abandon the whole thing and go for the swimmin' chix, or give it another go first?

BTW- the first two comps we used full parsley, but it stood so high that the top of the box layed on top of the chix. We thought we'd try the lettuce this time so that that didn;t happen.

Jeff Hughes
04-08-2009, 10:16 PM
I would not discard a method because of one bad comp.

I believe in dancing with the one that brung ya...

I would bet good money that Buffalo, Cancersucks, or Little Pig Town don't change a thing about the way they cook brisket next week(for those that have not seen the scores, these guys did less than expected last week)...

There has been a lot said about the judges in Stillwater, I'll comment on that in another thread...

SmokyOkie
04-08-2009, 10:33 PM
Jeff, they couldn;t be worth a darn cuz we didn't win.:roflmaoha0::blushing:

I don't like to blame judges in a comp any more than I like to blame umpires for a lost ball game. I mean they are both just factors in the game. a smart player would have them guessed.

Another successful cook that we both know commented that he use extra salt because he knew that they would be hung over and salt tastes good when you're hung over.

All just factors in the game.

I'm sure that the Elks out there aren't near as concerned in conforming to KCBS standards as CBJs are. If they were, they would allow a few, but I won't blame them for our lackluster performance.

We treated this comp like a practice cook, and we got practice cook scores.

Thanks for the support.

peculiarmike
04-09-2009, 08:23 AM
Telling us here about the poor judging at Stillwater won't change anything. You guys need to be talking to KCBS and the folks who put on the comp at Stillwater. Let them know your issues, tell them you want better judges, or at least a certification requirement for the Elks. And offer to not be back if things don't change. And don't go back if they don't. KCBS doesn't have a show without competitors.
That is the only way to get their attention.
And I don't mind hearing your comments, I just think if it's as bad as what you say why not do something to change it? I'd like to hear about that also.
Sounds sorta like another, much larger, issue we have talked about maybe, eh brother Okie?

Jeff Hughes
04-09-2009, 08:45 AM
Telling us here about the poor judging at Stillwater won't change anything. You guys need to be talking to KCBS and the folks who put on the comp at Stillwater. Let them know your issues, tell them you want better judges, or at least a certification requirement for the Elks. And offer to not be back if things don't change. And don't go back if they don't. KCBS doesn't have a show without competitors.
That is the only way to get their attention.
And I don't mind hearing your comments, I just think if it's as bad as what you say why not do something to change it? I'd like to hear about that also.
Sounds sorta like another, much larger, issue we have talked about maybe, eh brother Okie?

The Elks are not going to change, they have been doing that comp that way for over 20 years...

Most experienced competitors know what they are getting into when they enter(and don't complain)...

While there are always some surprising scores, the cream still rises. In the top ten are six multi GC winners(and three Royal Invite winners)...

peculiarmike
04-10-2009, 11:54 AM
The Elks are not going to change, they have been doing that comp that way for over 20 years...

Most experienced competitors know what they are getting into when they enter(and don't complain)...

While there are always some surprising scores, the cream still rises. In the top ten are six multi GC winners(and three Royal Invite winners)...


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................................. ................

SmokyOkie
04-10-2009, 03:12 PM
He's right Mike.

That is one of the reasons that I won't complain about the officiating.

the other reason is that everyone else plays to the same judges, and like I said, we had decided that this would be our practice cook. We had originally thought about just doing our own practice cook.

SmokinOkie
04-22-2009, 08:18 AM
Hey Smoky, it's smokin'

Dropped by at your request. Hope you enjoyed the chicken advice.

You wanted my thoughts:


...It appears that judges 1 and three were looking at the meat ( as most of you have expressed, the meat does look hungrifying). Judges #2 and6 were prolly thinking that the meat looked great and they didn't want to score it down too much for not being too pretty.

Judges 4 and 5 were prolly guilty of judging the box assy instead of the meat.



For the record I'm a certified KCBS judge (2001) and Table Captain, and more importantly a competitor. I'm also pretty fair chicken cook (took first at this very Stillwater event last year)

The scoring is "as presented". It doesn't say don't score the parsley and only the chicken, it's as presented. The problem is various trainers give their slight "spin" when they do the class, then the discussion and then the internet forums start adding to it.

Your thoughts about what each judge was looking at might or might not be right. Having been at the table a lot, there are more than a few certified judges who can't "explain" their score, they just give it one.

Trust me, if you sweat the scores TOO much, you'll go blind or crazy or both.

Now about criteria: It's taught, but it's open wildly to interpretation.

Example?

Chicken skin. NO where does it say the skin has to be bite through. That's something that came up on the internet. And now it's taking on more life in the training.

For you chicken, the "as presented score" would be a 5/6/7. 5 if it shows that much sauce (whether it soaks in, you don't know, if it's thick enough, it could still be there when it's scored). You get maybe 10 seconds or less, and for me, that would be the range. Color varies, size varies and just doesn't "wow" me.

But, as a competitor and a judge when I score, I go in favor of the team. Why? Because I know the value of the #'s and I'll be fair, I won't kill them with a 3 unless it deserves a 3 (usually I give a 5 if it's real bad)

You've got a lot of great comments and I see you've heard to trim your chicken (stop me if you've heard that one) :msn-wink:

You're light years ahead of most teams but my one specific comment is REALLY look for the details. There is some work to do, but it's just cook more chicken, build more boxes.

Oh, and remember, the low 6 is thrown out, so it's just one 6 and 6 is "average" and for me, there's just no ZING when I first saw the picture.

And in terms of winning, except for the huge contest, one appearance point won't matter as much as Taste/Tenderness. You get all 9's in T/T you're walking, and probably a first. Looking at my scoring spreadsheet, I have 2 firsts (not Stillwater) where I have 2 7's in appearance (they were idiots)...

Keep on cooking and you'll be doing fine.

crewdawg52
04-22-2009, 08:28 AM
Gave it a 6 (KCBS CBJ #23438 & member Smokin Scotsmen BBQ Team).

Reasons: thigh size varied greatly, sauce looked "glopped" on, the garnish was just so-so, and there are several places where the sauce dripped on the garnish leaves.

Going just by the pic, it didnt make me want to "dive in" and eat the whole box. Didnt see anything to down grade it, but I didnt see anything that made it stand out either.

SmokyOkie
04-22-2009, 11:54 AM
Hey Smoky, it's smokin'

Dropped by at your request. Hope you enjoyed the chicken advice.

You wanted my thoughts:



e.

And in terms of winning, except for the huge contest, one appearance point won't matter as much as Taste/Tenderness. You get all 9's in T/T you're walking, and probably a first. Looking at my scoring spreadsheet, I have 2 firsts (not Stillwater) where I have 2 7's in appearance (they were idiots)...

Keep on cooking and you'll be doing fine.

They always are when they score you down, huh?:msn-wink:

I think that I am very guilty of looking too much at the meat, and I say that because that is what it is to me. Here again, I think though that the meat's score is more important that appearance. I think it also goes back to the same old thing of " who are you cooking for?"

I mean if the judges aren't cooks, then they prolly won't look for the things that you do, or for that matter, most of the folks that have posted here.

If, when it's all said and done, if it becomes a matter of presenting visual art, we will prolly never be champs, because to us, it's about the meat, and I don;t think any of us are skilled in visual arts.:shrug:

Thanx again all for the input. We will try to do better in the future and represent you well.